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Wednesday, 14 May 2008
Re: 'Then I would rape you'
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The attitudes of Saudi Muslim men differ in degree, but not in kind, from those of Heather Mac Donald:

"You’re reckless,'’ one of the young men said to me.
He said that it was dangerous to drive into the desert with a group of Saudi men we did not know well.

Mac Donald says women should be told by rape counsellors that it is "dangerous" to get drunk and be alone with a man.

In both cases, boys will be boys, and rape is the woman's fault. At least the Saudi man calls it rape. Mac Donald says it isn't rape if the woman is drunk or "slutty" - a word very loosely defined and used exclusively of females. And a woman should be "advised" to "be careful" - again loosely defined and combined with a reflexive disbelief of rape victims who are not "careful".

Thus Mac Donald embraces a double standard and ingratiates herself with those men who long for the days when they could screw around with impunity and marry a virgin. But at least the Saudi man is honest, and doesn't pretend to be concerned for women's welfare.

If most Muslims were white, Mac Donald would approve of Islam.

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Posted on 05/14/2008 5:11 PM by Mary Jackson
Comments
14 May 2008
Send an emailEnoch
Do you never get embarrassed, spouting such nonsense?

It is absolutely true that it is unwise - even reckless - to get drunk and fall asleep in a man's bed.  It would be equally unwise to drive into the desert with a bunch of strange Saudi men (heck, it would be unwise to drive to a secluded spot with a bunch of strange men in any country).  It does not subtract from the man's guilt at all to say that women have a basic responsibility to ensure their own personal safety.

Why don't you let MacDonald speak for herself? Your interpretations of what she would say about situations like this are disingenuous to say the least.

In other news, your authentication thingy is really, really annoying...

14 May 2008
Send an emailMary Jackson

Mac Donald, as I said, ingratiates herself with backward-thinking men.

The above comment demonstrates this.



15 May 2008
milkshake

...whereas you are like totally progressive, whatever the word means now. (How about a self-righteous windbag, with a degree in identity studies?).

Whorey women sometimes do flasely acuse  men of rape  the morning after - and there are district attorneys ready to fabricate the case for political gain or expediency sake. In the she said-he said case men are presumed guity until proven innocent.



15 May 2008
Send an emailMary Jackson

whorey women...

No whorey men, of course. I rest my case. Mac Donald would love you.

In�the�she said-he said�case men are presumed guilty until proven innocent.

While to you and Mac Donald it's the other way round. The number false rape charges is tiny, yet even one invalidates the true ones in your book.

With women like Mac Donald around, who needs muslims?



15 May 2008
Send an emailTina Trent
I was glad to see this. I think Mac Donald went too far with her remarks. However, having worked in rape crisis and clocked my time in academia, I have to agree with her that campus activism on rape is pathetically, ideologically lopsided. By relying on discredited statistics, they harm their cause. They don't advocate consistent imprisonment and police intervention for rape because, clinging to the 25% victim rate, they cannot. So instead of acting in ways that would get the criminal justice system involved, they engage in self-affirmation and selective protest, pointing fingers at certain groups of offenders -- white frat boys -- while maintaining silence on other crimes. They do provide therapy for victims who arrive on campus having been raped or molested as a child, cases which constitute the statistical majority of sex crimes and are largely ignored. Mac Donald could have acknowledged this crucial service. But hanging tee-shirts up in the quad does nothing to address shameful incarceration rates, and it's utter madness that universities and feminists have created on-campus

15 May 2008
Send an emailJohnny

I'm with Miss Jackson on this one.

It does not subtract from the man's guilt at all to say that women have a basic responsibility to ensure their own personal safety.

Converely, it does not subtract from a man's virility at all if he musters the  necessary self-contôle  and maturity to keep it in his pants.



15 May 2008
Special Guest

I will tell my daughter not to go to an isolated area with a Muslim man, or a group of Muslim men, drunk or sober.

But no, I don't blame kafirs for Muslims' behavior, or women for men's behavior.



15 May 2008
Send an emailMary Jackson

 I have to agree with her that campus activism on rape is pathetically, ideologically lopsided. By relying on discredited statistics, they harm their cause

Actually, I agree with that part of Mac Donald's argument. However, when she goes on to condemn the "drunken hook-up" culture, she claims that this effectively turns rape into non-rape. She also condemns it only on the part of women, through the unconvincing hypothetical mouthpiece of "rape activists".



15 May 2008
Send an emailTina Trent
Oops, I didn't realize a reasonable word limit. The main point: hook-up/Greek culture IS sexually nihilistic (see _Pledged_, where girls speed-dial "their date-rapists" for sleep-overs while still calling them rapists). Activism that contributes anything to this scenario is culpable for something. But must conservatives always throw out the rape with the bath-water? They said similar things after the Puerto Rico Day wildings, impugning victims on the grounds that (some) women were scantily clad and dancing before they were sexually assaulted in broad daylight. I lay as much blame for schizo activism at the feet of college presidents whose hobby is trying to "liberate" cop-killers and serial rapists: campus feminists know that extending their ire much beyond white frat boys carries grave consequences in such environs. Thanks.

15 May 2008
Send an emailEnoch
Mac Donald, as I said, ingratiates herself with backward-thinking men. The above comment demonstrates this.

Wow, what a cogent rebuttal.  The powerful logic of your ad hominem remark has completely convinced me of the wrongness of my views.

it does not subtract from a man's virility at all if he musters the  necessary self-contôle  and maturity to keep it in his pants.

The man's self-control, or lack of it, is most likely irrelevant if the woman takes elementary steps to ensure her own safety, e.g., she does not pass out drunk in some frat boy's bed, she does not walk through the park late at night, she does not go out into the desert with strange Saudi men.

In any crime, the perpetrator is 100% guilty, but regardless of this the victim has a positive obligation to act in a way that minimizes their chance of becoming a victim.

15 May 2008
Send an emailMary Jackson

The man's self-control, or lack of it, is most likely irrelevant if the woman takes elementary steps to ensure her own safety, e.g., she does not pass out drunk in some frat boy's bed, she does not walk through the park late at night, she does not go out into the desert with strange Saudi men.

Well that lets men off the hook good and proper.

Actually, Enoch, you are one up on Mac Donald, because you do acknowledge that the man is guilty, even though he wouldn't have done it if the woman hadn't been so stupid as to go there. Mac Donald, on the other hand, believes that a crime hasn't happened if she hasn't behaved like a "nice girl".

Now then - just as it's normal for a journalist who happens to be female to believe she is entitled to be alone with men without being raped, so it is normal for a college girl.

Being alone, drunk with a man, is normal behaviour. It is not asking for rape.

If backward men and their ingratiating hangers on can't cope with that then tough shit. The law is catching up, and these animals - and on occasions their supporters - are being prosecuted.

If Mac Donald has a son who follows her advice, he will be locked up and buggered in prison within an inch of his life. Cry me a river.



15 May 2008
Send an emailEnoch
<i>Well that lets men off the hook good and proper.</i>

Why is it so hard for you to understand that it can <b>simultaneously</b> be true that the perpetrator (in this case, men) can be 100% guilty <b>and</b> the victim has an obligation to avoid, as far as possible, situations that increase the chances that they might become a victim?  It does not let criminals "off the hook" <b>at all</b>, let alone "good and proper", to say that victims should try as hard as they can not to become victims, and that not all victims are equally likely to become victims.

Most police departments acknowledge this logic when they publish "crime prevention tips".  For example, my local department says,

<i>The many pathways and park areas in Fairfax County are ideal places to walk and relax. By following the simple, sensible precautions described here you can help insure that your time spent on pathways, in parks or at similar outdoor places is safe and enjoyable.  Whenever you are walking or jogging in isolated areas, remember these personal safety tips:

- Have someone accompany you if at all possible. Walking a dog, especially one inclined to bark at strangers, is preferable to being alone.
- Let someone know where you will be and when you expect to return.
- Know where you can run for help. Remember that no coins are required to dial the 911 emergency number from pay telephones.
- Avoid walking too closely to bushes or areas with any kind of tall overgrowth.
- Avoid the temptation to daydream or otherwise become distracted. Know what's going on around you.
- Be alert to any sudden approach by a stranger.
- Try to avoid being out late at night. If you are out after dark, always carry a flashlight with fresh batteries.
- Whenever walking on a highway, road or street, always walk facing traffic. You should do this even when there are sidewalks, since it makes it more difficult for someone to drive up behind you without being noticed.
- Do not wear a headset.</i>

In your world, such advice constitutes "blaming the victim" and "letting men off the hook for rape".  In my world, the above actions are merely the sensible precautions that any responsible person takes to ensure their own safety.  Whether or not you take such advice, if you are attacked the attacker is 100% to blame.  But if you take such advice, you are less likely to become a victim.  Why is it a problem to extend such advice?  What MacDonald says is not greatly different from this, to wit, "don’t get drunk, don’t get into bed with a guy, and don’t take off your clothes or allow them to be removed." 

<i>Mac Donald, on the other hand, believes that a crime hasn't happened if she hasn't behaved like a "nice girl".</i>

That's not what her article says, and it is intellectually dishonest to read it that way.

<i>Now then - just as it's normal for a journalist who happens to be female to believe she is entitled to be alone with men without being raped, so it is normal for a college girl. Being alone, drunk with a man, is normal behaviour. It is not asking for rape. </i>

Being drunk and alone with men you barely know may be "normal" for you, and I dare say for a large number of college girls, too - though I never knew anyone like that, dagnabit - but it is perfectly clear to me that women who do not behave that way are less likely to be raped than women who do.  I would not advise my daughter to be drunk around some man she barely knows - especially if he's drunk, too - any more than I'd advise her to stroll through the park late at night listening to her iPod.  She may be "entitled" not to be raped in either situation, but she needs to accept personal responsibility for not putting herself in a situation that increases the chance of being raped. 

Your use of the word "entitled" is interesting, by the way.  What we are theoretically "entitled" to and what we actually get are quite different, as any sensible person understands.  In principle, every human being is entitled not to be the victim of <b>any</b> kind of crime!  Yet we know that crime happens all the time.  Should not the obvious and large disparity between the ideal and the real influence our conduct?

<i>If backward men and their ingratiating hangers on can't cope with that then tough shit. The law is catching up, and these animals - and on occasions their supporters - are being prosecuted.</i>

Yeah, we saw at Duke exactly what it means that the "law is catching up".  Great, what an advance for civilization.  Everyone is safer now!

Anyway, if two students have a drunken hookup, they are <b>both</b> animals, not just him.  Drunken hookups that women retroactively decide are rape may well be more aggressively prosecuted in the future, but nevertheless the female is not without moral responsibility in such cases.

<i>If Mac Donald has a son who follows her advice, he will be locked up and buggered in prison within an inch of his life. Cry me a river. </i>

Considering she offers <b>no advice whatsoever</b> for men in her article, I don't know how you arrive at that bizarre conclusion.  What I get out of the article is that just as I would advise my daughter not to be drunk and alone with a strange man, I would advise my son not to get involved in drunken hookups, because he might get unjustly prosecuted afterwards.

Your attitude towards prison rape is disgusting, by the way.

16 May 2008
Send an emailMary Jackson

Both you and Mac Donald love that Duke case. One case negates all legitmate rape charges in your book, and in hers.

Your attitude towards prison rape is disgusting, by the way.

Hardly. It totally accords with Mac Donald's. If men don't want to be raped they shouldn't put themselves in that situation, ie prison, where they will be.

Or is it only women that this applies to?

Any rapist who gets raped in prison deserves scant sympathy in my view. At least he had a choice whether to go there or not, which is more than his victim did, drunk or not drunk.

But hold fast to that Duke case - one case�- and it failed anyway - set against many where the rapist goes free or where the rape isn't reported because attitudes like yours and MacDonald's mean she won't be believed unless she's a "nice girl".





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