Yesterday evening, in the 'Lateline' evening program on Australia's ABC TV, the host Tony Jones interviewed Geert Wilders (by teleconference). This is in the lead-up to Mr Wilders' visit to Australia which has been sponsored by the Q Society.
The interviewer was very hostile but I think Mr Wilders held his own admirably.
At the moment you can see - and hear - the exchange on the ABC website; that, however, will not remain possible indefinitely. The transcript will, however, remain available into the foreseeable future.
If you are reading this in February 2013, then please click on the link above and watch and listen: the sneering hostility of the interviewer, and the manner of his constant aggressive interruptions, are not as obvious from the transcript as it is from the audio and visuals.
'Anti-Muslim Campaigner Coming to Australia'.
'Ahead of his visit to Australia, far-right (BZZZZZT! buzzword alert! 'Far-right ' is used as a derogatory epithet for any person at all who dares to suggest that it might be possible to occasionally a/ say NO to incessant and strident Muslim demands and b/ discuss Muslim texts and Muslim conduct - past or present - in a manner even remotely critical. - CM) Dutch MP Geert Wilders talks to Tony Jones about his opposition to Muslim immigrants in his country.
"TONY JONES [henceforward, TJ - CM], PRESENTER: Now to our guest.
"Geert Wilders is the Dutch anti-immigration and anti-Islam MP. He's the founder of the right wing party Party For Freedom.
Please define what you mean, exactly, by 'right wing', Mr Jones, before you start throwing it around like that. And I do not think that Mr Wilders completely opposes all immigration; it is Muslim immigration that primarily concerns him, because of the way in which a high proportion of the current lot of Muslims already present in the Netherlands, and their offspring, are conducting themselves; though a country as tiny and thickly-populated as the Netherlands is entitled to set limits on how many immigrants it permits, period. One might think, by analogy, of Singapore; it is quite difficult, so I have heard, to become a citizen of Singapore. - CM
"Next week, Geert Wilders arrives in Australia for a visit that's been a long time in the making. He planned to come here about a year ago and drew early support from Liberal Senator Cory Bernardi who later distanced himself from the idea.
Which is a shame. - CM
'Now he's being sponsored by the anti-Islamic group, The Q Society, on a road trip that's sure to fire debate over what constitutes free speech or hate speech.
Define hate speech, please, Mr Jones.
Is it 'hate speech' if I say in public that the Muslims' role model and 'prophet', Mohammed, is believed by them, on the basis of their canonical texts, the Sira and the Hadith, to have engaged himself to a six year old girl, Aisha, and to have taken her to bed and had marital relations with her, once she reached the age of just nine years?
And what if, in addition, I deplore the widespread practice of the wedding and bedding - quite often forcibly - of underage girls (often to much, much older men) in many Islamic countries and even openly or clandestinely among Muslim 'communities' in non-Muslim countries such as the UK: a practice that is explicitly and publicly defended, by quite a few leading Islamic 'clerics', on the basis of the example set by Mohammed? And what if I then state that since the age of consent for girls - and it must be free consent - in our country is sixteen, then any Muslims in our country must refrain from marrying off under-aged girls, to adult men; and if I say that if they are caught doing it anyway on the sly, or if an Islamic 'cleric' is caught advocating the wedding-and-bedding of underage girls, then the full force of Australian law as regards sexual congress with minors (and as regards the advocacy of same), must be brought down upon those responsible? Is that 'hate speech'?
Is it 'hate speech' if I state that I agree with Mr Wilders? I too, because of sharia-prescribed practices such as - often forced - wedding-and-bedding of underaged girl-children, and polygyny, and the Quranic verse that tells Muslim men to beat those of their wives from whom they merely 'fear' 'rebellion' (and I might also mention, as Mr Wilders does in the interview, he Islamic apostasy law which demands that anyone who leaves Islam must be punished, preferably killed) and the difficulty and expense of trying to enforce compliance with our laws, upon a sullen and often openly hostile and aggressive immigrant Muslim population that will try at every turn to practise its own evil, violent and misogynistic customs in defiance of our laws, I would prefer that no more Muslims be permitted into my country, and that we start figuring out ways to remove all those who manifest as dangerous? - CM
'Geert Wilders joins us now live from The Hague. Thanks for being there.'
GEERT WILDERS, LEADER, PARTY FOR FREEDOM: "Well, thanks for having me on your show tonight.
At least they interviewed him, I will say that for the ABC. - CM
TJ: "Are you on some sort of global Jihad against Islam?
Peculiar choice of words. Would Mr Jones have asked a Muslim interviewee, point blank, 'Are you on some sort of global Jihad against the Infidels?' - CM
GW: "Indeed. I am more on a global jihad to preserve our freedom.
Nice one, Mr Wilders. Turn the enemy's terminology against him. After all, the 'jihad' is conducted as much by 'pen and tongue' as by the sword. So a non-Muslim person defending his society against the Jihad waged by the Muslims, begins with words, to educate, advise and warn. And I don't think Mr Jones expected this answer, at all; it severely rattled him. - CM
"I believe that even though I have nothing against the people or Muslims or anybody for that reason, I believe that Islam and freedom are incompatible.
"And I believe that the mistakes that we made in Europe in the last decades by allowing so much mass immigration from Islamic countries is a warning that if Australia is not vigilant enough to preserve this freedom, what has happened here might happen to Australia in the next decades as well.
TJ: "So, very precisely, you plan to warn Australian audiences of what you see as the danger of Islamic migration, is that correct?
GW: "Well, yes, I believe that, once again, Islam and freedom are incompatible. Islam is according to me, my party, not so much a religion as well as it is a totalitarian ideology. In Islam there is not much room for anything else but Islam.
"Look how in societies today where Islam is dominant and prominent, how any non-Islamic person, whether it's a Christian or an apostate or a woman or a critical journalist, how they are treated. This is in a very bad way, often with the death penalty or imprisonment or all those kind of terrible things.
That is the single most important point that must be made, over and over, by Wilders and by all of us who are trying to resist the Islamisation of our countries. It is manifestly clear that no non-Muslim is - or ever has been - genuinely free or safe in any society in which Muslims rule and/ or form the majority. It is often said that to see the true character of a person, you must look at how he treats those less powerful than himself, those over whom he wields power. The Ummah does not come out too well when put to that test. Considered as a gestalt, the Ummah has an atrocious record of mistreating any non-Muslims over whom they, the Muslims, have power. - CM
"I believe that what with the mass immigration to our free societies, our societies will change, and it will change for the worse. And I'm proud to say you are not a racist or a bigot or anything like that if you say that the Netherlands, as Australia (that is, 'like Australia' - CM) is a culture based on Christianity, on Judaism, on humanism, and it should not nor ever will become a society based on Islamic failures. We should fight it [that is, fight Islamisation - CM], we should stop it, we should be proud of who we are and define what we are not."
TJ: "I'm going to pick you up on some of those points in a little while. But what do you actually know in [this should be 'of' or 'about' - CM] the Islamic community in Australia? What you have heard about what is happening here, and Australian multiculturalism - which it seems to me could be quite different to multiculturalism in Holland?
Ah yes, this is the 'our Muslims are different' or 'we are different' argument that the USA used to use as well, when faced with the ugly stories about Muslim immigrant misbehaviour within Europe...but I have lost track, by now, of just how many mass-murderous jihad plots have been fortunately foiled in the USA within the past five years, all of them hatched from within the Muslim 'community' in the USA. The peacefulness or the belligerence of any given Muslim colony within the lands of the infidels seems to me to be be entirely situational: if the Muslims perceive themselves to be weak vis a vis the surrounding non-Muslims, they will lie low and make nice; but the moment the balance of power begins to shift, the moment the Muslims perceive themselves to be strong in numbers and/ or strong politically, and especially if the host society is conciliatory and 'gives way' when tested on this or that demand, or when subjected to preliminary assaults, preliminary 'trials of strength', then they will 'flip' and start becoming openly aggressive. The only reason that aggression from Muslims in Australia has been relatively low-level compared to, say, France or the UK or the Netherlands, is that there are a lot fewer Muslims - both in absolute terms and when considered as a percentage of our population whether locally, regionally or nationally - in Australia, than in the UK or France or the Netherlands. - CM
GW: "Of course that's the case. I'm not saying that it's exactly the same. I know and I also spoke in the United States of America and in Canada, and other countries already have good results with immigration, that it cannot be compared [in] everything to Europe.
"But I know where we today in Europe have enormous influx of...in the last decades of people from Islamic countries, that our society has changed.
"That it has worsened for that reason.
"That unfortunately non-Western immigrants, often Muslims, are over-represented in statistics of crime, of dependency on social benefits, that we have honour killings, that we have genital mutilation, that we have streets where women with headscarves and burqas are not the exception any more. And that it's getting worse.
"What I'm trying to do when I visit your beautiful country, Australia, is warn Australians that even though it might not be the case today, learn from the mistakes that we made in Europe: be vigilant and look at Islam for what it really is. Islam is not a religion of peace. Islam is a totalitarian ideology".
"The best example [of that] is that if any person, any Muslim wants to leave Islam, then the penalty is death. It is not even allowed to leave it. That's why I believe Islam should not be compared with other religions like Christianity or Judaism, but Islam should be compared to other totalitarian ideologies like Communism or Fascism.
I hope that many Aussies who saw this interview have now gone off and done some research on Islam, and what happens, or is supposed to happen, to people who try to leave Islam. They won't like what they find. Just in case any inquiring and as-yet-uninformed Aussies lob in here,I commend to them Ayaan Hirsi Ali's 'Infidel', together with Canon Dr Patrick Sookhdeo's 'Freedom to Believe: Challenging Islam's Apostasy Law', and Samuel Zwemer's classic study, 'The Law of Apostasy in Islam' (which may be read in its entirety online, for free, just google and see). - CM
TJ: "I can tell you for sure there are plenty of Islamic people in Australia who've left the religion without being killed.
Really, Mr Jones? Exactly how many of them can you personally name? Have you ever met a publicly-declared apostate from Islam - whether an atheist or a convert to Christianity - face-to-face? Have you ever done a TV interview with an ex-Muslim who is also a resident of Australia? Do you know, for sure, that in this country they do not have to worry about their personal safety, after having left the Ummah? Because I know of apostates in the UK and in the USA - and at least one prominent ex-Muslim who is active in Australia and New Zealand, one Daniel Shayesteh, a convert to Christianity - who do have to watch their backs, day and night, for fear of the sharia hitmen. And if you think, Mr Jones, that the Muslims in Australia are so laid-back about apostasy, then ask yourself why Ms Ayaan Hirsi Ali would have been foolish to dispense with her bodyguards when she visited the Sydney Writers' Festival. - CM
"So what you're saying can't be everywhere. Indeed, I suspect what you're talking about is Islamic fundamentalism. Why not restrict your arguments to Islamic fundamentalism or radical Islam - Islamism - why do you include in this broad brush moderate Islam?
Read ex-Muslim Ali Sina on the myth of moderate Islam, Mr Jones. And for anyone else who hasn't yet read Mr Sina's essay, here's the link:
GW (adjusts earpiece): Sorry, I lose you here for a minute, but I think you asked me why...
TJ: "I said why don't you exclude from your annoyance, your anger, moderate Islam, which is very different to what you seem to be describing?
GW: "Yes. Well, it's not annoyance of anger. It's just the truth.
"What you're saying about radical Islam, with all respect to you, sir, is complete nonsense.
"There is no radical or moderate Islam. There is only one Islam, and that is the Islam from the Koran, the holy book. (And, too, from the Sira, or canonical life of Mohammed, and from the Sahih Hadiths - CM). That is the Islam from Mohammed. There are no two sorts of Islam.
Conor Cruise O'Brien said it already in 1995: Islam is indivisible.
"However, there are moderate and non-moderate Muslims, I acknowledge that. As a matter of fact, the majority of the Muslims living in our society are (or appear to be, at the moment - CM) moderate people.
"But don't make the mistake that even though there are moderate and radical Muslims that there is a moderate or a radical Islam.
"There is only one Islam, and that is a totalitarian ideology that has no room for anything but Islam. You see it once again in any country in the world where Islam is dominant. How come that we, for instance...
TJ: "Can I just interrupt you there? It happens we live very close to the largest Islamic country in the world, Indonesia, which has 250 million people, and has recently transitioned to democracy. According to you, that's impossible for an Islamic country to do.
"Yes they have a problem with radical Islam. It is a small problem relative to the whole population.
How small? And even if it is 'small' now, in relative terms, it may not stay small. The province of Aceh, in Sumatra, is rapidly 'going sharia'. And I think Mr Jones needs to talk to the Christians of recently-freed Catholic majority Timor L'Este, and ask them how they were treated by Muslim Indonesia; and then he could talk to the Christians of Java, and the Christians who were driven out of their homes in the Moluccas by the Lashkar Jihad during the late 1990s (while the Indonesian army did nothing whatsoever to prevent the atrocities that were committed, and indeed, in some instances, joined in or enabled the Jihad against the indigenous Christian population); and Mr Jones should also talk to the Christians of Sulawesi, and in particular, right now, to the indigenous Melanesian Christians of West Papua. The 'Barnabas Fund' could tell him a few things about the way that Christians are frequently treated, in many parts of Indonesia, that I think he has not bothered to find out. - CM
"How do you think we should deal with Indonesia? Do you think we should treat them as if they are somehow insane?
Speaking as an Australian who knows rather more about the suffering of non-Muslims in Indonesia, and the behaviour of Muslims in Indonesia toward Infidels, historically and today, than you appear to know, Mr Jones - ask yourself where the term 'running amok' comes from, Mr Jones, and I also advise that you read C S Hurgronje, 'The Acehnese' - I would have to say: Yes. Given what the suffused-with-Islam and overwhelmingly-Muslim Indonesian government and army did to the Christians of Timor, and what they are doing to the Christians and other non-Muslim indigenes of Papua right now, and what they did to the Christians of the Moluccas, I would not give Muslim-dominated majority-Muslim Indonesia economic 'aid', nor sell them arms, nor would I train their military men and their police. I would not sell them cattle to be tormented to death by halal slaughter. I would not buy their rice or their paper or their timber. I would not permit Indonesian Muslims to migrate to Australia, or study in Australia, or do business in Australia. I would keep them strictly at arm's length; and I would resolutely and visibly and solidly fortify our northern/ north-western coast, that looks out across the sea toward Muslim Indonesia; and I would work very hard to ensure that stable and strong and free non-Muslim societies, capable of holding their own against any assault launched from across their land borders with Muslim Indonesia, arose in Papua-New Guinea and in East Timor. - CM
GW: "Once again you misunderstand my point entirely. I'm not talking about the people. I have nothing against the people. I have nothing against the Indonesian people or the Arab people or the Muslim people. I'm talking about the ideology.
Which, of course, exists not only in books but inside the heads of the people who adhere to it, and strongly influences their conduct. - CM
"And indeed, as long as a country has a culture a religion an ideology where Islam is dominant, it will never be a democracy.
It may have mob rule. But it won't be like a modern western liberal democracy, under which the human and civil rights of individuals are protected. - CM
"Look at how they treat Christians in Indonesia (exactly - take that, Tony Jones! - CM) or how they treat Christians (and any other variety of non-Muslim - CM) in any other country where Islam is dominant.
"Why is it not possible to build a church in Saudi Arabia (and it is actually quite difficult to get approval to build a new church even in so-called 'moderate' Indonesia, these days - CM), whereas we in the Netherlands have almost 500 mosques being built; why is it not possible to buy or sell a Bible in any Muslim or in most of the Muslim countries, whereas we can buy a Koran here on every street corner? This is the exact example of the fact that Islam is an intolerant society. I believe that.."
And again, very rudely and aggressively, Tony Jones interrupted. - CM
TJ: "Can I just...I will have to interrupt you on that point as well, because in fact, one of your own ideas is to ban the Koran in the Netherlands. So apparently you're as intolerant as you believe the other side to be?
Note that sly use of the term 'believe'. It appears Mr Jones is woefully uninformed about the extent of the official and unofficial suppression of free speech in all Muslim-dominated countries. - CM
GW: "No, I made a point in the Dutch Parliament - unfortunately, you are wrong here as well - I made a point in the Dutch Parliament that we're in Holland - you have to see the Dutch context. Mein Kampf, this terrible book of Adolph Hitler, is outlawed. I made a point in the Dutch parliament that I say to all these liberal politicians and socialist politicians in my own parliament that, "Hey, you are very happy here, you applauded the fact that Mein Kampf was outlawed in the Netherlands. If you are really consistent, you should, for the same arguments that you use as liberal politicians to outlaw Mein Kampf, outlaw the Koran as well".
"Of course, it was very silent; they were not consistent and they shoved the problem under the carpet. Which is exactly the point again - that we should be able to see Islam for what it is, make a distinction between the people and the ideology, and stop with being politically correct, and address the problems, as many people, also in Australia, see it when it comes to the Islamisation of their country".
TJ: "Let's talk to you about what you've said. You've called Islam the "greatest sickness we've had during the last century". I take it that [that] probably includes Nazism. You also say it has to be "tackled and driven back". What do you mean by that exactly? How would you drive it back, if you had the power?"
GW: You know, it's very simple. I believe that we should stop the immigration, the mass immigration from Islamic countries.
I agree, with this exception: I would admit the desperate and imperilled non-Muslims from those Muslim lands, people such as the Copts from Egypt, or the Hindus and Christians from Pakistan and Bangladesh, and Hindus and Buddhists and Confucians and Christians from Malaysia and Indonesia, and the mortally-imperilled Assyrian Christians from Iraq and Syria; and I would make it clear, as I did so, that any Muslim from those countries, who pretended to be what he or she wasn't, in order to get inside the door, would be booted right back out the moment that their imposture was detected. - CM
"I believe that Muslims that are in our society today are of course equal as anybody else, as long as they adhere to our laws, to our constitution, to our values. And as long as they cross this red line (sic: I think he means, 'but the moment they cross this red line' - CM), if they commit crimes, if they start beating up women, if they start the genital mutilation, if they start to commit other crimes (such as violent gang rapes of non-Muslim girls and women, and the 'grooming' of underage non-Muslim girls for sex slavery, which has been happening in the UK and also in the Netherlands - CM) and honour killings, as they unfortunately do in Western Europe many times - if they do that, I believe we should expel them, the same day if possible, from our country.
"So to stop the immigration to our societies - because we have had more than enough Islam in our societies - and people who are here and who are behaving according to our laws and our constitutions are happy to stay, are equal to anybody else, or even what to help them with the better education, but if they cross the line of crime, start acting according to Sharia law, there will be no place for them in our free societies...".
TJ: "Wait, wait...it's not so simple, because the vast majority of crime committed, for example, by young Moroccans (that is, by young Moroccan Muslims, Mr Jones - CM) - and you do have a problem there, there's no doubting that - are committed by people who've been born in Holland. Are you suggesting stripping them of their citizenship?
Why not, Mr Jones? Or the ancient punishment of Exile For the Term of Your Natural Life could be invoked, by western countries faced with violent sharia-crazed Muslims born on our soil, or with violent, sharia-crazed native-born citizens who have converted to Islam and in so doing have become, essentially, enemies to the land of their birth. - CM
GW: it doesn't matter.
TJ: Say that again.
GW: "Well, you know, in Holland, Moroccans automatically also have the Moroccan nationality even if they're born in the Netherlands, because the Moroccan law (mimicking sharia, which holds that any child of a Muslim is deemed to be Muslim also - CM) says that if one of the parents is Moroccan, the children wherever they are born in the world are Moroccan as well. So any of these youth...and let me tell you, the Moroccan youth (that is, Moroccan Muslim youth - CM) in the Netherlands between the age of 14 and 23, two-thirds of them have been arrested by the police at least once in their life. Two thirds of the young..".
TJ: "Actually, I did look at your department, your department...It is a big problem, but you are exaggerating it. The Department of Interior Statistics say 40 percent in that age group, not two thirds, which is 60 percent.
And TJ thinks 'only' 40 percent is nothing to worry about? CM
GW: 'Yes, that was two years ago. And if you would've looked at the latest report (which I am sure Mr Wilders has done, he is after all a Dutch parliamentarian with access to the most up-to-date information - CM) you would see that it's more than 60 percent today.
"But the point is, that since they are Moroccan and Dutch, if they commit crimes, if they commit serious crime - I'm not talking about driving through a red light, but if they commit serious crimes - I believe we should strip them indeed of the Dutch nationality and send them back to Morocco, as Morocco does [to foreigners who offend. - CM].
"If you are a Morocco citizen with a dual nationality, if you commit a crime in Morocco, you are stripped [of] Moroccan nationality and send to our own country. We can learn from them in that respect.
Hmm. I wonder how many originally-dual-nationality Moroccan-plus-something-else Muslim criminals - and, perhaps, jihad plotters and sharia-assassins - Morocco has managed to unload on the Netherlands (or, for that matter, on other European lands, such as France) by this neat trick: claim those born in this or that European country as 'Moroccan' and use them as political leverage; but if they're living in Morocco, and do something bad, they suddenly become nationals of the European country only, and are deposited in Europe. Time and past time for the Europeans to put a stop to that little game. - CM
TJ: "Does this mean you would only strip Islamic criminals of their passports and their citizenship or all criminals who came from another country? For example, if you came from Australia and committed a crime, you were Dutch, but you had an Australian origin, you would be sent back to Australia, would you? Is it all criminals, or are you singling out Islamic criminals?
GW: "No, that would be ridiculous even for you to suggest. I'm not a racist. It would also go for Swedish people, for Australian people - but let me tell you, we have no problem in the Netherlands with Australian criminals, or with Swedish criminals. We have a problem with, amongst others, Moroccan criminals.
With Moroccan Muslim criminals. And, I would hazard the guess, with Muslims of all kinds. - CM
"Of course that would apply with anybody for any dual nationality, but the mere fact would be the reality, because we have overrepresentation of often Moroccan people and other people from Islamic background in a crime that they would be stripped of the Dutch nationality and sent away. I don't know what's wrong with it: if you commit a crime, you've overstayed our welcome. If I have guests in my house, and if they start messing up my kitchen or start getting a fire in any sleeping room, I would send them away...
TJ: "They're not guests in your house! They are citizens in your country. That's a very different thing. They're not guest workers who just happen to be there. They are people who are Dutch citizens who've been born in your country.
Well, Mr Jones? There is or used to be such a crime as Treason, which could be punished either by Exile, or by Execution; also, Sedition, Rebellion, and Insurrection; there is Infiltration and Subversion. I advise you to read Sam Solomon and Elias Al-Muqdisi's deeply-disturbing little book about the thing that Islam calls 'hegira', "Modern-Day Trojan Horse: The Islamic Doctrine of Immigration", which is reviewed here:
and also to read Canon Dr Patrick Sookhdeo's 'Islam in Britain' and 'Faith, Power and Territory', which describe the processes by which the Ummah, or Mohammedan Mob, goes about gaining and then keeping temporal power over earthly turf and those who live there. - CM
GW: "Well, yes, if you talk about Moroccans, indeed they are also, besides...
TJ: "All right, okay , you've made that point. Okay.
GW: "But we also have a lot of people who are not Dutch, and who are in Holland as a guest, whether they are asylum seekers or others. I believe if you commit a crime you overstay your welcome, if we could extradite you.
TJ: "Let's go through some of your other potential policies, were you to gain more power than you currently have. You've got a five-year moratorium, was what you originally said, on migration from foreign countries. You're now, I believe, saying that should be from Islamic countries; Islamic migration should be banned. Isn't that against European rules?
GW: "I'm a politician. I believe that we can change any rule that is there. Once again, we have an enormous support within the Dutch public. One million people voted for my party. We are number three, and in the polls today even number two party, the second biggest party of Holland. So we are not as you said in your introduction a far-right party. If we would've been extreme, we would've got 0.01 percent of the vote. We got more than 10 percent of the vote."
"Why? Because we address the problems of so many Dutch people that are afraid to go out in their neighbourhoods after 10 pm, who are afraid to send their children to school because of all the harassment they get from this parallel Islamic society. And people are not extreme in Holland. We are one of the most tolerant societies in the world, and in order to stay tolerant, my party believes that we should stop being tolerant to the people who are intolerant to us. We should start being intolerant to those who are intolerant to us. This is not modern logic, this is not extreme, this is common sense."
TJ: "Can I ask why it is the values the solidarity of Dutch society is not strong enough to cope with the Islamic population of 6 percent? How can 6 percent overturn the values of your society?
Easily, if the 6 percent are Muslims who take Islam to heart, and if most of the remaining 84 percent do not stand up to them; if they do not realize, or refuse to realize, that the Muslims are, en bloc, making war upon them in many ways both small and great, physical and psychological. - CM
GW: "Like I said, it's not just a Dutch problem. I don't know if you've lately visited Europe, if you've been to the city of Malmo in Sweden, or to Berlin, or to Hamburg, or to London, or to Paris in the suburbs, or Rotterdam in my own country. You see many cities where there is a city within a city - where even today in the United Kingdom - I don't know if you're aware of that - there are even sharia courts active, where it's rulings that the worth of a woman is half of that of a man."
"You see crime, and you see all the things happening, unfortunately all over Europe, because of (a) the mass immigration but (b) also because of we politicians are not able to deal with it. We are politically correct, we are afraid to address the problem. Because if you address the problem like I do, people like you call us evil extreme, or you're being taken to court, or you will get death threats in [sic: against - CM] your life. There is a big disincentive to talk about the truth. I will speak the truth...
TJ: "Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you (suuuure he doesn't - CM) but we are sort of running out of time, and I want to get to a couple of other things.
"I mean, when you got the balance of power, the government under your influence basically got rid of multiculturalism in Holland. Ended the concept of multiculturalism in Holland.
"We're to have an election this year in Australia. There are senior figures in the Coalition, that is the conservative party, who are seriously questioning multiculturalism in Australia. Will you be encouraging that debate when you come here?
GW: "I don't want to get involved in Australian politics. That's up to you. You are a democracy, and Australian people should decide who they will vote for, and I'm not mingling or interfering in that at all. I just want to say that the multiculturalism - and especially the cultural relativism which is even worse than multiculturalism, the concept that all cultures are equal - is the worst recipe for any society.
"So yes, I believe that we should like I said before define who we are and in order to do that you have to know what you are not. And I'm proud to be a member of a society that is based, whose values are based on Christianity, Judaism and humanism. I never would like to be a country that is that multicultural that, for instance, the Islamic values become more dominant. We should not do that. We should stop that.
"I'm not against other cultures, but I believe what the Germans call a 'leitkultur', a dominant culture that we should have, even in our constitution state, what our dominant culture is and that our laws should apply to that culture and to no other one.
TJ: "Finally, it's been reported that you are coming with your own personal protection team of Dutch Secret Service. I don't know if that's true. But if it is I'm wondering what sort of reception you are expecting in Australia, and are you worried - because there have been many threats to your life in Holland - whether that could happen here?
GW: " I hope you understand that I'm always advised and I follow that advice never to talk about security issues, so I cannot tell you who will be accompanying me and why, because that would only make myself more vulnerable. So I will not talk about that".
"But yes indeed, I hope - I'm a democrat. I'm a democratically elected politician from the Netherlands representing one of the major parties in Holland - I hope that I will be able to talk and to discuss with people. Not only people I agree with - it's very easy to talk to people you agree with - but also people you disagree with, maybe even Australian politicians.
"Don't be afraid of me.
"I'm a law maker, I'm not a law breaker. And I'm just telling the truth.
"And I want Australia, a country and a people that I respect very much - any Dutchman knows [about] the young Australians that fought for our freedom in the First and Second World Wars - I hope I can tell you what happened in Europe and support you in your fight to preserve freedom for your children and your grandchildren, and tell them what I believe the Islamic threat is and to discuss it with anybody - also [with] people who don't agree with me. This is democracy. This is civil society. We should cherish that.
Bravo, Mr Wilders. - CM
TJ: "Very briefly before we go, you mentioned politicians there. Of course you have had contact with Senator Cory Bernardi of the Liberal Party. Do you intend to see him or other politicians when you're in the country?
GW: "Well, I met Mr Bernardi in Holland. I believe you are in an election now. I believe it might be more difficult for him to meet me now. I think he doesn't intend to do that. I understand that this is politics. The friend from yesterday can have an argument not to see you tomorrow. It's sad but true.
It is sad, if Mr Bernardi has chickened out and will not be meeting Mr Wilders nor coming to hear him speak. - CM
"But I'm open to meet any politician in Australia, to meet any person; I think we can learn from one another. I believe I have an important message, and we are fighting the same fight, which is the fight for freedom in Australia, in Holland, and in Europe."
TJ: "Geert Wilders, it's a long discussion that needs to be had with you. We've had a, I think, small portion of it here tonight. We thank you very much for taking the time to come and talk to us."
GW: "It's my pleasure. I'm looking forward to meeting your country next week".
And many of us in Australia are looking forward to meeting Mr Wilders, one of the bravest men in Europe. - CM