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Friday, 3 November 2006
Re: Derb and the Image of God
My line of thought was:
 
---Undoubtedly, judging by what they wrote, human beings up to about 150 years ago--and many still today--**did** regard humanity as a finished product, created by God's hand.  The product included all its petty variations, of course; but nobody thought that humans developed by gradations from other creatures, still less did anyone think that humans might develop, by gradations, **into** other creatures.  This finished-product view of humanity stood at the center of all religions. 
 
---Once it became clear that these things were so, religious people split into two camps.  One camp just refused, and still refuses, to look,  saying that these things cannot possibly be so, because they contradict the ordinary religious thinking of 1,850 years.  Which, in my opinion, as stated in my original piece, they do.  The people in this camp--I use "Creationists" as a convenient label, though it always starts arguments--believe that the modern picture of man as a mere line segment on Nature's continuum cannot be squared with the truths of religion, or at any rate of the Christian religion.  (Though lots of people in the other Abrahamic religions agree with them, and I think some Hindus, too.)
 
---The other camp, whose strongest cohort, so far as I know, is in the Roman Catholic Church, summoned up its intellectuals to get to work to rationalize the new understanding, so that it could be accepted.  They wanted it fitted in to RC doctrine, so that they could then say: "Well, OK, but see--it doesn't contradict anything that we've always believed."  RC intellectuals are, in my opinion, superb--probably the best religious intellectuals in the world, ever.  They'll give you an elegantly-constructed argument for absolutely anything.  They also feel they got badly burned by the Galileo business (as a PR matter, I mean, whether justly or not) and are determined not to let **that** happen again.
 
---But the fact that religious intellectuals, when new truths of this sort are uncovered, have to be set to work to incorporate them into the body of doctrine, weakens the force of that doctrine.  Religion is supposed to contain eternal truths.  Each time you say: "Well, yes, that's what our grandfathers believed, but now we know they were wrong, and what we SHOULD be believing is this..."--each time you say that, you sap away a little at religion's claim to eternal truth.
 
---The cumulative effect of all those saps, eventually, is to undermine religious faith.  
 
That's all I was saying.
 
[As a footnote there, reading through what I just wrote, it sounds as if, for all my diatribes against "Intelligent Design," I am actually more sympathetic to the ID-ers than I am to the Catholic church's rationalization of Darwinism.  I just noticed that, and I want to think about it a bit more, but yes, comparing the ID-ers' flat rejection of truths that are inconsistent with scripture, to the Catholic church's subtle, brilliant finessing of the issue, there is at least a sort of bull-headed damn-the-torpedoes honor in the first approach that is absent from the second.]
 
Can Wesley Smith come up with a 500-word argument for human exceptionalism?  I would never have doubted for a moment that he could.  He is an extremely smart guy.  Are his beliefs about the universe and humanity congruent at every point with his grandfather's?  No, they aren't.  Then where are these eternal truths?  (And please don't tell me "in the Creed."  That's metaphysics.  Very few religions--I think Hinayana Buddhism may be an exception--have been content to restrict their teachings to metaphysics.  Certainly the RC church has not.  And once you venture outside the metaphysical sphere, you expose yourself to contradiction, or at least vitiation, by scientific inquiry.)
 
I was arguing that in the light of modern biology, man looks much more like just another branch of the tree of life than he did to our grandfathers, or even to the younger John Derbyshire, and that this weakens faith--has weakened mine.  That "looks like" may of course be an illusion; but science does the best it can, and its track record with the physical world, as against any revealed religion's, is pretty darn good.  In any case, my argument, as just stated, seems to me unassailable.
 
To Wesley's last paragraph:  It is a tired point, but Wesley invites it, that the "evils that have plagued human history" have not been noticeably less observable in religious ages (e.g. 17th-century Europe) than in irreligious ones ( e.g. the late Roman republic); nor in deeply observant Christian places (e.g. 1970s Northern Ireland) than in unobservant ones (e.g. 1970s Norway); nor indeed have they been notably less observable in religious institutions (the College of Cardinals) than in secular ones (the Royal Society).  As an argument for the proposition that we need a faith-based conviction of our own specialness to keep us from cutting each other's throats, this really doesn't get us anywhere... Unless, as must always be added, your faith prejudices you in favor of the argument. 
 
The matter of "how we perceive ourselves" seems to me, on historical and personal evidence, to be orthogonal to religious faith.  In my view, we are indeed a part of nature; an animal;  but a social animal, inclined by nature to live amongst others of our kind, and equipped by nature to do so in reasonable harmony.  Possibly this was all arranged by a beneficent deity, but I see no necessary reason to think so.  As I am sure Wesley Smith knows, those cold-hearted Darwinian materialists have come up with excellent (though, unfortunately, hard to test--not that that should be troublesome to a theologian!) explanations for things like altruism, fraternal affection, and other benign common features of human societies, even of irreligious ones.
 
I am not sure either, though it is not my zone of expertise, that Wesley isn't putting words into Thomas Jefferson's mouth.  I understood Jefferson's meaning to be that no man comes into the world with a moral right to be another man's master.  Jefferson was, in other words, denying the aristocratic principle that, in his time, still dominated Europe.  That principle (call it A), and its denial (call it null-A... fans of classic science fiction are chuckling quietly here), are possible organizing rules of human societies.  Jefferson was stating his preference for null-A over A as an organizing principle of his new Republic.  That either A or null-A depends on the METAPHYSICAL principle that humanity differs from the rest of nature by supernatural ordinance, is not obvious to me.  Nor do I know whether Jefferson believed that they did, though from a sketchy knowledge of the man, I think it more likely he thought they didn't.  As I said, this is not my area, though, and I will humbly take correction on the subject of Jefferson's thinking.
 
"[B]eyond the esoteric, there are practical reasons to reject Derbyshire's perspective."  What does THAT mean?  Either we are, or else we are not, exceptional in the way that Wesley claims.  If we can determine the truth of the matter, we should acknowledge that truth, and live with it as best we can, and to hell with "practicality."  Should we "reject Derbyshire's perspective" even if it seems much more likely to be true than Wesley's?  I am sure Wesley does not think so.  Truth is truth, notwithstanding that it is most often of a probabilistic nature.  If we can find the truth, we should acknowledge it, however "impractical" it might be to do so.  Magna est veritas et praevalebit  ("The truth is great and shall prevail... a bit.")
 
And then Wesley says: "[U]nderstanding that there is such a thing as evil action proves we are special in the known universe. Thankfully, one need not have faith to understand that." 
 
That is very well said.  A lesser brain would have left out the word "action,"  opening up the proposition to several lines of fire.  As an intellectual combatant, Wesley is no slouch.
 
Is the first of those two sentences true, though?  It seems to me that it **is** true, but only tautologically so.  Yes,humans are the only created things that we know to employ the concept "evil action."  We are, in fact, the only created things that employ ANY abstract concepts--"beauty," "wisdom," "quadrilateral,"...  We are indeed special in that sense.  The fact of our being special in this way is indeed proved by... our being special in this way.
 
Whether it follows that we are special in the way Wesley has been arguing--by virtue of being supernaturally favored and gifted--does **not** follow.  Nor is it inconceivable (well, not to me) that next Tuesday some mad scientist might come up with a computer that can employ abstract concepts; or that we might get a message filled with abstract concepts from beings in the M31 spiral galaxy; nor even that my mongrel mutt has some dim inkling of abstract concepts (though I think a chimp is a much better candidate for that).  The specialness being displayed here, in other words, while real, may be no more special than the elephant's trunk--a highly, but NATURALLY, developed feature.  That there is anything supernatural going on does not follow. 
 
And the suspicion that nothing supernatural, nothing eternal and immutable, is present behind our specialness, is reinforced by the obvious fact that the commonly-understood meaning of "evil action" has varied greatly across time and space, even within the confines of a single faith.  Razib Khan over at the Gene Expression website recently blogged that when he was a child, growing up among orthodox Muslims in Bangladesh, the taking of photographs was severely proscribed as violating the scriptural rulings on idolatry.  It was an evil action!  Nowadays Osama bin Laden--a very devout Muslim, as I understand--broadcasts his messages by video.  Similarly, when I was a young child, the Roman Catholic church was railing furiously against contraception as an "evil action."  They have since gone very quiet about the wickedness of contraception, yielding to the fact that some huge majority of female worshippers preferred to ignore church teaching on this point.  Yessir:  if what you seek is a situational, circumstantial code of ethics, adjusting itself constantly to the twists and turns of the Zeitgeist, retooling the understanding of "evil action" every decade or to to keep up, the Inerrant Word of God is just the ticket!
Posted on 11/03/2006 5:20 PM by John Derbyshire
Comments
3 Nov 2006
Send an emailRebecca Bynum
John, think about this, aren't there two stains in religion? one is evolutionary and changeable and the other is revealed and unchanging. Nobody would be foolhardy enough to take a pencil to the Sermon on the Mount for instance, (except Muhammad who tossed out both Old and New Testaments in full without a thought and still called himself a prophet in the Hebrew line - Abrahamic faith, yeah right). Nonetheless, how can you maintain that evolution is fine for everything except religion? Religion has to adapt to changing circumstances and new knowledge and thank goodness science has been there to help rid religion of its moribund superstition. I don't understand, why shouldn't religion change?

3 Nov 2006
Send an emailJohn Derbyshire
Rebecca: I don't know of any reason why religion shouldn't change and evolve; but if we are to accept that it can do so, will religious people please stop telling me that the turths they live by are eternal and immutable, while mine are mere arbitrary passing fancies?

3 Nov 2006
Send an emailRebecca Bynum
John, you may certainly have that promise from me.

3 Nov 2006
Send an emailmark b
Derb, You won’t get Rebecca’s promise from me, but much more besides. I have a theological theory that covers most if not all your objections but it’s too long for this. I have tried to instigate discussions with other Catholics on Original Sin, for example, because that doctrine falls apart on present examination of natural history. Man developed in a world that already had plenty of sin and death among living things and primates. Nor is theodicy a problem when you realize that God is not omniscient. That is, we have falsely supposed that God knows the future of everything, but life only makes sense when we realize that God can’t know the unknowable - what sentient creatures will choose to do at any given moment when they really are free agents just like God. (That doesn’t mean that people can’t behave automatically and predictably, though.) Most of the Christian doctrines no longer stand up to rational scrutiny. That is where I am completely in agreement with you, but the certain moral and theological verities remain regardless of throwing out the bathwater. The baby does remain because you can meet him face to face when you decide you really want to. Nor is man restricted to any present idea of completion if we think of consciousness as open and developmental both in evolutionary terms, individual ones, and the possibility of better future brains. Truth will remain true no matter how much better or higher IQ becomes. Certain eternal verities will not change anymore than simple math will change with time. Neither can logic change, nor basic questions. There is an answer to why is there anything, and it is both personal and purely rational.

10 Nov 2006
Send an emailClay Sills
Dear Mark: Wow. I don't know where to begin. Okay, let's start here: "God is not omniscient." That pretty much puts paid to both testaments, since they are nothing if not records of prophecy and its subsequent fulfillment. If prophecy is not knowing the unknowable, then what is it? I come to the party here as an observant but non-believing Episcopalian. I can't see how you are doing anything than making Derb's argument about the sapping of faith for him. You've said, in effect, that there ARE no eternal truths about God. So, if that's the case, then where's the basis for an eternal God? I ain't seeing it. Please help me understand.

10 Nov 2006
Send an emailmark b
Clay, I agree with Derb on the bulk of his argument. Where I don't agree is that he is reasoning from a lack of direct experience of a manifestly living God. In the absence of direct revelation, one can be a deist or Mysterian, but not a Christian or Jew. It is revelation which makes eternal verities apparent.

10 Nov 2006
Send an emailClay Sills
Mark: but what ARE these eternal verities that revelation makes apparent? The revelatory power of the microscope makes the existence of microbes apparent, but we can still list microbes for people who have no recourse to a microscope. I don't mean to sound anything other than sincere here. I would love to know what the eternal verities are.

10 Nov 2006
Loudon is a Fool
I don't think I understand this debate. Derb says "Humans aren't special, they're just interesting." Smith says, "But humans are moral and intellectual beings with the ability to create, civilize, project over time and transcend." Derb says, "But that doesn't prove we're made in the image and likeness of God." Smith says, "I didn't say it did, but it does suggest humans are exceptional." Derb says, "Yeah, but not special. Head ... hurts ... stop ... talking ... Smith ... meanie." I guess it was Smith's use of the word "transcend."

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