The Spectator Debate – Is Secularism is a greater threat to Christianity than Islam?

by Esmerelda Weatherwax (July 2011)

Last year on Armistice Day, at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month the Muslims against Crusades burnt the poppies at Kensington Gore outside the Royal Geographical Society building. They were watched by Ernest Shackleton who stood impassively on his niche above.

Last night, Wednesday 29^thJune 2011, I went to a more civilised event inside the building behind the statue of the Arctic explorer, and his companion round the corner, Dr Livingstone.

It was one of the debates organised regularly by the Spectator. Even non UK readers will have heard of this British magazine on current affairs.

To speak in favour of the motion were Professor Tariq Ramadan, about whom much has been written here, most of it by Hugh, Father Timothy Radcliff OP a Dominican friar and Catholic priest who is, among other posts, a former chaplain to Imperial College which is adjacent, and Damian Thompson. He used to write the Holy Smoke blog for the Telegraph when his posts on Islam, frequently critical, used to attract lively debate. He is now the Blogs Editor for that paper and his current posts concentrate more on the flaws of the Catholic Church, and the lack of any good whatsoever (in his opinion) in the Church of England.

The Chairman was Rod Liddle who is associate editor of the Spectator and a columnist for the Sunday Times.

The auditorium was full but not overcrowded. Some very ladylike young women dressed in elegant black took a preliminary verbal vote of our opinion before we had heard the arguments. Most of the panel took their places and Rod Liddle began his opening remarks and to introduce them. Tariq Ramadan was fashionably late.

The format of the debate was that each speaker would speak for 9 minutes. There would be questions from the floor. One minute each to sum up and then the vote would be announced.

Father Timothy Radcliff began.

He said that the term secularism can be used in a weak sense and a strong sense. In the weak sense the trend is for the exclusion of faith in the public sphere. In the strong of strict sense secularism maintains that the only truth is science, that which can be empirically observed and based on checkable facts

However Islam has been responsible in history for destroying Christianity. He gave details. Arabia having been a pluralist country was, by 644 all Muslim. In his later life Mohammed was not friendly towards Christians. Islam is ideologically hostile to Christianity. Damascus, Jerusalem, Alexandria were all centres of the early church, all fell to Islam. The growth of the Islamic empire was an expansionist drive intrinsic with Islam.

(founded by Tariq Ramadan’s grandfather – I glanced at him to see what his reaction was – he looked bored) has sparked a new onslaught on Christians. In Afghanistan the entire new convert church also faces annihilation

He said imagine a Christian woman, labouring in the fields. Her co-workers denounce her for blasphemy against Islam and she is thrown in prison. Imagine that the politician who takes up her case is murdered. The Christian politician, the only one in government, who takes over her case next, is also murdered. She faces the death penalty. That is what has happened to Aasia Bibi right now.

Where is Aasia Bibi safest? Under an Islamic state or a secular one?

Damian Thompson.

It is because of secularism. It cannot sustain an overarching belief. It becomes diffuse, nebulous, and as malleable as a quotation in a Johann Hari article.

Nick Cohen

He continued that Christianity has had the enlightenment in the rich world, but not yet in the poor world which is why we see the persecution of homosexuals in Uganda. And all religions are against that greatest revolution of the 20^thcentury, the emancipation of women.

He concluded that militant atheists carry books, militant believers carry guns. No-where in the world are atheists killing Christians but Muslims are.

Tariq Ramadan.

It is not true that in Islam if you change your religion you will die.

You are reducing Islam to the way of Islamists and all Islam is not that. And that is very dangerous.

I do not have time to define secularism. Most dangerous are the dogmatic minds. In believers we will find a solution.

I have had dialogue with the Pope, with Jewish Rabbis have challenges. The state gives you space to be, how do you keep your spirituality, your ethics? Secularism is more of a threat to Christianity, rather than Islam.

Doubting minds are dangerous.

Douglas Murray.

Patrick Sookhdeo is one of the Moral Heroes of our day.

No.

As I give you this sorry list I cannot believe that two practising Christians can take to the stage to support this motion. It shows an appalling moral failure, a sort of Stockholm syndrome by proxy. I cannot believe that Father Timothy and Damien really want to be on the side of the stage that they are. They are mixing up the fire with the fire-fighters.

Secularism is our best chance to live together in a pluralist society.

The first question was from a man who wanted the panel to agree that this country was a much better place to live when Christianity was the norm. He did not want his children growing up in a secular society. He wanted everybody who deplored divorce and abortion to stand for 3 seconds to show that every baby has a right to live. He warned that society is descending into nihilism and relativism.

Rod Liddle said that he raised too many questions, none of which were quite relevant but he invited anybody from the panel to elaborate on their view.

Damian Thompson said that never in his life has anything he has said been so misinterpreted as it has this evening by Douglas Murray. I have often spoken out against the cowardice of the church. Douglas has misrepresented my remarks. I wish to make that clear.

Dr Sookhdeo said that the problem lies within us and we must deal with it internally. We must realise our own personal responsibility. Secularism does not pose a physical threat to the church like Islam does. Secularism is a spiritual threat which it is our personal responsibility to face.

A young man spoke. I have a question for Professor Ramadan. Secularism gives one a choice. Does Islam give people that choice?

Seated left to right. Back row. Professor Tariq Ramadan.

Then it was the turn of Patrick Sookhdeo.

You, as a scholar, know full well that all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence call for the death penalty for apostasy in an adult male.

Referring back to an earlier query raised while trying to define the motion he said that we must not deal with this as a parochial issue. That Islam is a threat in other countries but secularism is the immediate threat to me in this country, now. We have to look at this globally.

Father Timothy said that he had come across many Christian organisations working with the oppressed in Islamic countries but never a secular one. Douglas Murray countered that he knew of several, of which the most obvious one is Medecin san Frontiers, who help anybody and everybody.

Douglas Murray

Tariq Ramadan

Nick Cohen

Damian Thompson

Patrick Sookhdeo

English Christians and the church need courage and conviction to argue their case. They can do so in a climate that has had an enlightenment. Islam has not. If you were me or Aasia Bibi where would you like to live?

Father Timothy Radcliffe

We must value tolerance and cool argument and in this country that is rooted in Christianity.

This photograph shows the breakdown of votes, before and after.

 

Photographs E Weatherwax June 2011

Tuesday 5th July – My notes of Dr Sookhdeo's speech amended; much obliged.

 

 

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