by Jerry Gordon and Mike Bates (June 2015)
According to the Pew Research Religion and Public Life Project (Pew Research) there are an estimated 2.7 million Muslims in America. Pew Research reported in 2013 over I million legal immigrants entered the US of which 100,000 were Muslim. More than 1.3 million Muslims have been brought into the US via the billion dollar US Refugee Admissions Program (US RAP). Annually the US RAP brings in 70,000 refugees allotted by the UN High Commissioner of Refugees (UNHCR). These annual USRAP allotments are virtually controlled by the UNHCR, which designates refugee populations most at risk. The current USRAP allotment exceeds that of all other countries combined. Separate from the US RAP are other legal avenues for Muslim immigration that include the asylum program that converts illegal border crossers into legal immigrants with benefits equivalent to refugees, the Diversity “Green Card” Lottery and the investor EB-5 Visa Program.
According to Ann Corcoran, editor of the Refugee Resettlement Watch (RRW) blog, this UN refugee agency “virtually calls the shots” for the US RAP that provides legal refugee immigrants with a veritable smorgasbord of cash welfare, Social Security benefits for elderly refugees, Medicaid, educational assistance and a pathway to ultimate citizenship. Including both federal and state level benefits; some experts estimate that the annual total cost of the US RAP could be upwards of $12 to $20 billion annually.
The tripartite US RAP is administered by: the US Department of State, Bureau of Population Refugees and Migration (BPRM) that admits and contracts with voluntary agencies to process refugees; the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) that allegedly screens refugees abroad; and the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) of the US Department of Health and Human Services that funds grants to program contractors and refugee ethnic groups for community absorption. The President, upon advice from the State Department BPRM, sends Congress an annual directive conveying these UNHCR refugee allotments that are virtually “rubber stamped” by immigration and border security subcommittees of Congress. A network of 9 major religious and secular voluntary agencies (VOLAG), supported by 350 subcontractors places refugees in more than 190 cities, often without any opportunity for review by localities. These contractors include:
Church World Services (CWS)
Ethiopian Community Development Council (ECDC)
Episcopal Migration Ministries
Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society
International Rescue Committee (IRC)
US Committee for Refugees and Immigrants
Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Services (LIRS)
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB)
World Relief Corporation (WR).
Based on 2012 IRS Form 990 submissions, the top US RAP funded Volag was the IRC that received more than $332 millions in federal grants and contracts accounting for more than 73% of annual revenue. Next in rank was the USCCB that received $71 million in federal grants and contracts accounting for 98% of their annual revenue.
The Congress has never exercised effective oversight of the Refugee Admissions Program through hearings and recommendations. The US RAP has been used punitively against political critics. One example is the assignment of large numbers of Somali refugees to the Congressional District of former US Rep. Michelle Bachmann in St. Cloud, Minnesota
The US RAP has been fraught with fraud facilitating the entry of Muslim Jihadis from countries that hate us; Somalia, Iraq, Bosnia and Kosovo. Rampant fraud was detected from DHS DNA samples taken among Somali applicants for screening under the State Department Family Reunification P-3 Visa Program resulting in the shutdown of the program for three years. 20,000 fraudulently admitted Somali refugees were never pursued or ejected. Given the world’s attention on the problem of illegal migrants crossing the Mediterranean, the State Department refugee program let in to the US hundreds of Somalis who fled to the Island of Malta without any clearances.
Poised to add to this troubling mix is a stream of 17,000 Syrian refugees, who are predominately Muslim, discriminating against admissions of endangered Middle East Christians. Doubtless they and growing number of Muslim refugees from elsewhere in the Middle East, Africa and South Asia will be “seeded” in American cities under the Fostering Community Engagement and Welcoming Communities Project of the ORR with the Soros-backed NGO, “Welcoming America.“
There are rising concerns over Muslim refugee resettlement under the US Refugee Admissions Program that has operated for 35 years. These concerns have arisen since the Refugee Act of 1980 was passed and signed into law by former President Jimmy Carter. The law was introduced by the late Sen. Edward Kennedy and then Senator, and now Obama Vice President, Joe Biden. Corcoran of RRW believes that it is overdue for a major overhaul and reform. By virtue of admitting hundreds of potential Jihadis among refugees from Muslims lands, the program constitutes a significant national security risk.
Now there is pushback by American cities, as witnessed by concerns expressed in letters to Secretary of State Kerry by Rep. Trey Gowdy (R-SC), chairman of the House Judiciary Sub Committee on Immigration and Border Security. Both The House Subcommittee and the Senate Subcommittee on Immigration and the National Interest, chaired by Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) hold annual hearings over refugee allotments. Gowdy’s letter of April 13, 2015 was prompted by constituent complaints in Spartanburg, South Carolina over the establishment of a VOLAG office dedicated to the processing of Syrian refugees. He wrote Secretary Kerry seeking answers as to why the office was being established and had not been reviewed with state and local agencies.
The US RAP is a virtual Trojan Horse facilitating immigration under the Islamic doctrine of Dar al Hijra- immigration that constitutes civilizational jihad. This is the subject of a book by former Islamic jurist and convert to Christianity, Sam Solomon, and co-author E Al Maqdisi, Modern Day Trojan Horse; The Islamic Doctrine of Immigration – accepting Freedom or Imposing Islam? The authors drew attention to the Islamic imperative behind migration allegedly attributed to the prophet Mohammed:
Migration cannot be ended as long as there is kufr (unbelief) or as long as there is an enemy that resists (kenz al Umak 4627). In other words, as long as there are communities out there that are non-Muslim, where Islam is not regarded as a supreme system, then jihad must continue.
Hence, Mohammed made it clear that migration is a duty that needs to be upheld forever or until the earth has submitted to the Islamic hegemony.
The authors note that the hadith (alleged sayings of Mohammed) demand that Muslim migrants not assimilate and remain separate adhering to Sharia “advancing the cause of Islam”:
In other words: “no integration with the host country.” Now if one’s entry visa or livelihood is based on showing some kind of integration … then it must be in appearance only and temporary until the Islamization objective is achieved.
Corcoran is featured in a brief video on the problematic Muslim refugee resettlement in the US produced by the Center for Security Policy. It has gone viral since posted on YouTube April 20, 2015. As of May 29, 2015 the Corcoran video had more than 537,122 hits which continue to climb every day. Clearly, Corcoran’s message has resonated among concerned Americans. Watch it on YouTube:
The CSP YouTube video is a complement to her recently published book on the problems confronting America over the threat of Muslim migration that has transformed Europe and now troubles grass roots America, “Refugee Resettlement and the Hijra to America.”
Corcoran and her RRW team of activists chronicle news and developments about this issue on the blog where she is editor, Refugee Resettlement Watch. In our May 2015 NER interview with Erick Stakelbeck of CBN’s The Watchman program, ISIS Threat to America, he drew attention to the Somali refugee communities in the American heartland sending jihadi terrorists to Somalia and Syria. He spoke of young Somali émigré men who have joined up with Al Shabaab in Somalia, and now the Islamic State. We have drawn attention to the problems of Somali Refugee Resettlement in NER articles and Iconoclast posts over the past eight years. They have covered severe cultural and integration problems in the American heartland in places like Shelbyville, Tennessee, Emporia, Kansas, Greeley , Colorado, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Columbus, Ohio, and Lewiston, Maine.
The Somali émigré jihadis aren’t the only terrorists among admitted refugees. Six Bosnian refugees were arrested in January 2015 and charged with providing material support to the Islamic State. Think of the brothers Tsarnaev who perpetrated the Boston Marathon bombing in 2013. See our NER article, “Refugee Jihad Terror in Boston.” An ABC investigation reported that dozens of terrorists have been admitted fraudulently under the US RAP.
Another example was two Iraqi refugees, al Qaeda operatives, arrested in Bowling Green, Kentucky in 2011 and convicted in 2013. They were charged with sending weapons and cash to Al Qaeda. They lied on their Federal Refugee Admission forms about their prior terrorist involvements in Iraq. One had constructed IEDs, involved in killing four members of a Pennsylvania National Guard unit in 2006 in Iraq. A check of fingerprints on the shards of the IED caught the perpetrator. Watch this 2013 ABC Report. Recently, one of those convicted, Mohanad Shareef Hammadi, filed a motion seeking to overturn his conviction because his counsel said he wouldn’t get life. That episode briefly raised the ire of Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY).
In late May 2015 Democrat Senators Durbin of Illinois, Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and 12 others have signed a letter calling for the Obama Administration to admit a flood of 65,000 Syrian Muslim Refugees “suggested” by UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR):
The group letter noted the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) wants to resettle 130,000 Syrian refugees over the next two years and has thus far submitted more than 12,000 resettlement cases to the United States for consideration.
On the same day, House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Michael McCaul (R-Texas) called the resettlement effort a “serious mistake” because of the security risks it poses.
Adam Kredo of The Washington Free Beacon reported May 23, 2015 that the DHS admitted that several hundred terrorist supporters entered the US illegally, and subsequently were admitted as refugees giving rise to Congressional demands for information and a likely hearing:
Congress is demanding that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) release documents detailing how many foreigners seeking asylum in the United States have been found to have ties to terror groups, according to a recent letter sent to the agency by leading lawmakers.
The letter comes on the heels of revelations by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) that at least 638 aliens seeking asylum in America have been found to have connections to terrorists.
Against this background, we arranged to interview Ann Corcoran of RRW.
Mike Bates: Good afternoon and welcome back to Your Turn. This is Mike Bates. This half hour is a special conversation about a topic that I think is safe to say almost no one in America is aware of. Certainly the percentage of people who are aware is in single digits. Joining me, Jerry Gordon, Senior Editor of the New English Review and its blog, The Iconoclast. Welcome, Jerry.
Jerry Gordon: Good to be here, Mike.
Bates: And joining us by telephone is Ann Corcoran. She’s editor of Refugee Resettlement Watch, and the author of the book Refugee Resettlement and the Hijra to America. Ann. Welcome.
Ann Corcoran: Thank you so much for having me.
Bates: Ann, I’d like to build this pyramid from the ground up with a very broad based question. What refugee resettlement are you watching?
Corcoran: I’m watching a very complicated, secretive program, where we bring in approximately 70,000 refugees a year from various countries around the world, and the U.N. is basically calling the shots as to who gets into the country.
Bates: Are you concerned about refugees from the entire planet, or a specific segment that is of greater concern?
Corcoran: I can tell you the truth; it’s quite shocking for most people to realize that we are bringing in tens of thousands of refugees every year from countries where people hate us; Somalia, Iraq and soon Syria will be on the list. It is those refugees that I’m most concerned about.
There are also economic reasons why we should cut the numbers of refugees, generally.
Gordon: Ann, I want to read you a quotation from Mo, our friend, the Prophet Mohammed.
Bates: May peace be upon him.
Gordon: This is courtesy of one of the more reliable commentators, Bukhari. “Accordingly, there can be no Hijra – which means migration – after the conquest, but Jihad and a desire or an intention, and if you settle, then spread out.”
How important is this Islamic doctrine behind the mushrooming effect of Muslim immigration to America? There have been roughly 350,000 to 400,000 Muslims who have come to the U.S. as refugees from some of these countries you just enumerated that hate us; 100,000, for example, originally from Somalia; another 100,000 from Iraq, and another 100,000 from Bosnia.
Out of these groups have emerged “known or lone wolves or terrorists against us.” We saw that in the case of the Chechen refugees, the Tsarnaev brothers who perpetrated the Boston Marathon bombing. Then in Bowling Green, Kentucky, you had not one, but two Iraqis who came in as refugees lying on their admission forms who were actually Al Qaeda operatives. They were trying to ship weapons and money to Al Qaeda.
One of them, amazingly, got fingered, literally, because his prints were on the shards of IED’s that he made in Iraq. Are there hundreds if not thousands of these folks among these “refugees from countries that hate us”?
Corcoran: Well there certainly could be. One of my larger concerns, aside from the terrorists who are getting in here, is we can’t properly screen them. Recently the FBI testified in the House Homeland Security Committee that they can’t screen the Syrians because they are coming from a failed state. Which is only common sense as you wouldn’t be able to screen people from countries that don’t have records of them; particularly countries like Somalia. I’m also concerned about the civilizational Jihad; the pressure that comes on our western societies when Islamic population reaches certain levels. It doesn’t even have to reach high levels for the pressure to be put on for us to accommodate Sharia, Islamic law and the Islamic way of life.
Bates: Jerry cited the instruction from the Prophet Mohammed – may peace be upon him – so I completely understand why the Muslims’ wish to immigrate to the United States. But why are we taking them? Is this something that we’re doing voluntarily? Is this a policy of this administration? Is this a long standing policy of the United States? Why are we allowing so many refugees into the U.S.?
Corcoran: This is a program that has been in place for 35 years; most people are surprised to find that out. The Refugee Act of 1980 was the brain child of -this won’t surprise you – the late Senator Ted Kennedy and former Senator, now Vice President Joe Biden. Jimmy Carter signed it into law.
This has been going on as I said for 35 years, with the United Nations calling the shots more and more. In recent years, we are seeing more refugees being taken from countries in the Middle East – of course, that’s where much of the turmoil is – and from Africa.
We all know there are millions of refugees in the world. We could be taking them from other places if we so chose. However, we are taking a large number now from Iraq, Somalia and soon Syria.
Bates: I know that the Refugee Act of 1980 allows the United Nations to designate the number of refugees to be resettled in certain countries – they get to call the shots. But do we as a sovereign nation have the ability to say no to what the U.N. says we have to do?
Corcoran: We absolutely do. However, I’m afraid to say the United States and the U.S. State Department does whatever the U.N. tells it to do. This is not just something that occurred in the Obama administration. This was going on during the Bush administration as well.
I have only been following the refugee program since 2007. That was triggered when refugees landed in my rural county in Maryland and I wanted to understand how this worked. Each year the President sends a determination letter to Congress and designates how many refugees from each part of the world we are going to receive.
Congress could come back and say, “No we aren’t.” However, they never do. They just rubber stamp it and the President concurs on how many come from which parts of the world based on what the United Nations is pressuring us to do.
Gordon: Recently we had an outburst of concern about the acceptance of Syrian refugees that triggered a series of letters between US Rep. Trey Gowdy to Secretary of State Kerry. We know Gowdy because of his involvement with the Benghazi affair and other matters. What role does he play in the House in terms of reviewing these determinations about how many refugees enter this country, and what was the concern?
Corcoran: Trey Gowdy is Chairman of the Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security of the House Judiciary Committee. His Subcommittee has jurisdiction over the Refugee Act of 1980 and how it is administered; and they could be holding oversight hearings.
In my years of following this, I’ve never seen Congress lift a finger to examine this program. Now Gowdy is involved because refugees were – surprise, surprise – being planned to enter his Congressional district.
We saw the U.S. State Department do this in other Congressional Districts; most notably Michele Bachmann’s district in St. Cloud, Minnesota. Now, they are planning to, bring in refugees to Gowdy’s district and so he is now involved, thank goodness.
So, we would love for him to hold hearings. I think that is what needs to be done now for this program.
Bates: Is there a concern in Congress beyond just Trey Gowdy?
Corcoran: Is anybody concerned in Congress? Anyone else besides Trey Gowdy? No.
Bates: We don’t hear much about it. I don’t hear very many people complaining about it. I think most of the country is ignorant about it. Are most Congressmen ignorant about it?
Corcoran: Yes, they are frankly ignorant about it. I had one of my activists, contact Senator Enzi from Wyoming. One of Enzi’s staff wrote back about a completely different immigration program. They didn’t even understand what the refugee program is. I found that to be the case all over the place. There has been a virtual silence out of Congress on this program.
Gordon: Ann, who is placing these refugees that we just talked about in communities like Spartanburg, South Carolina, Shelbyville, Tennessee, Minneapolis, Minnesota or Greeley, Colorado? Which groups are actually involved with setting up offices, screening and processing them and making money out of it?
Corcoran: That is the part that shocks the public the most when they learn this. The U.S. State Department brings in the refugees that the U.N. has largely chosen for us, and Homeland Security are supposed to screen them. I mean, how do you screen somebody from a failed state when you don’t even know who they are? Then, these are divvied up, literally, between nine major contractors that include groups such as the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, World Lutheran Service and Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society. There are six of them that are supposedly religious charities, exclusively funded by the U.S. taxpayer. They then divide up their allotment of refugees among 350 subcontractors in 190 U.S. cities. They literally compete with each other for these refugees, because money comes along with each refugee.
Gordon: Ann there is a new wrinkle in the seeding of refugees in these communities. It has to do with a group out of Atlanta called “Welcoming America,” which has been, funded in part by none other than George Soros. What is their angle and who are they contracted with?
Corcoran: I first came across “Welcoming America” in 2013 when I went to an Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) stakeholder meeting. Now stakeholders are everybody who has a piece of this refugee resettlement program. It doesn’t mean the average citizen can normally go to these events held in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
When I first heard about “Welcoming America” at the ORR stakeholder meeting and I heard the phrase used by the federal program presenter about “pockets of resistance forming in America.” To deal with these “pockets of resistance” the Federal Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) funded “Welcoming America” with a grant to go around the country and make sure these pockets of resistance were straightened out.
Gordon: Ann, what kind of benefits are these refugees receiving, and are they on some sort of fast track towards citizenship?
Corcoran: Refugees are the only category of legal immigrants that can come right into the country and be signed up for various social service programs. I’m talking about food stamps, subsidized housing, education for the kids, and health insurance right from the start.
Most legal immigrants have to be here for a number of years before they can access those welfare benefits. Even elderly refugees receive Supplementary Security Income (SSI) from Social Security as well. On the matter of fast track for citizenship, within a year following their entry into the US, they are given green card like permanent resident aliens. That allows them to be processed for citizenship. These same contractors that I’m talking about, the nine voluntary agencies and their 350 subcontractors receive grant money from the federal government to help them guide refugee clients through the citizenship process, literally holding their hands.
Gordon: When you and I were first writing about this “secret program,” there was an event that occurred that shut down the Family Reunification Visa Program for nearly three years. It concerned fraud in Somali refugee camps prior to coming here. Can you tell us about that?
Corcoran: In 2008, the U.S. State Department discovered – surprise surprise – that Somalis applying to enter the U.S. to reunite with their families here were not related to the families here in the first place.
The U.S. State Department had to shut down the whole P-3 Visa program for Family Reunification for about three or four years to try to get this straightened out. Teams from the DHS did sample DNA tests and discovered the massive amount of fraud that was going on.
At one point the U.S. State Department was saying 20,000 Somalis got into the United States illegally and nothing was ever done to find them and remove them.
Now, the P-3 Visa program is back up and running and we’re bringing Somalis into the United States at the rate of 700 to 800 a month. I’d like you to consider why we are bringing any Somalis into the United States at all. We are bringing them in at a rate almost on par with the Bush Administration, which saw the highest rates of Somalis entering the US.
Bates: They’re not just coming into the country for temporary refugee status. This is permanent relocation. Given that we do not have any clue where these people are coming from? Are they terrorists? Does this pose a national security problem for the United States?
Corcoran: It absolutely does pose a national security problem. Who are these people that we are bringing in? They say they screen them, but how can they screen them? One of the great shocks that I discovered a few years ago was illegal migrants coming across the Mediterranean that we are now reading about in our news.
Many illegal Somali migrants got to the tiny island nation of Malta in the Mediterranean. Starting in the Bush administration we were bringing in 700 to 1,000 of those illegal Somali migrants who got to Malta to the United States as refugees.
How on earth do we know who these people are who got on boats and came across the Mediterranean and then we brought from Malta to the US? It makes absolutely no sense.
Gordon: Ann, prior to this interview we were speaking about why countries in the Gulf region, the wealthy Emirates, Saudi Arabia, aren’t backing this refugee program setting up camps in their locale. You mentioned what happened to a group of Somalis who made it to Saudi Arabia. What happened in that case?
Corcoran: Actually, there was more than one case. Any Somalis who have entered illegally into Saudi Arabia are immediately put on a plane and sent back to Mogadishu, and the United Nations hasn’t said a word about this.
You can just imagine what ruckus would be made in the media if the United States decided to start rounding up Somalis putting them on a plane and sending them back to the failed state of Somalia. But Saudi Arabia can do it and there’s not a word out of anyone, whether at the UN or here in the US.
Bates: What I find so disconcerting about this is twofold: one, are they terrorists because so many in the Muslim world are, and the other aspect of it is culturally. It used to be that immigrants would come to America and they would assimilate into the culture, but most of these refugees are not assimilating into the culture.
They are just forming their own distinct neighborhoods living very deliberately separate from the American culture. Is that not a problem?
Corcoran: Yes, it’s definitely a problem. By the way, assimilate is a dirty word now. The Obama administration has basically banned the word. It is not allowed. The Obama administration has a taskforce on new Americans where they literally discuss seeding American towns with immigrants, but the word assimilation is verboten.
It is only, the soil or the community that must change to accommodate the seedling. So, the term assimilation is not allowed any longer.
Bates: This is incredibly foolish. It is a Trojan horse of the worst kind, given the problems with mass Muslim immigration and the lack of assimilation of Muslim communities in Europe that are, in many cases, violent.
I don’t just mean Charlie Hebdo and the Jewish bakery in Paris attacks, but even the protests and other kinds of violence that is occurring there. Of course it’s always reported as youth but never Muslim youth.
It’s not like we don’t know where this is going. Europe has done this to its own detriment. Why do we follow in the footsteps of this foolishness?
Corcoran: I wish I had an answer to that question because, it blows my mind. All you have to do is to look to Europe to see what might be our future. Why? Probably, because we have no leadership that is able to stand up to this. They’re all so afraid of being called racist xenophobes or Islamophobes.
To be frank, we have no leadership in Congress. We have no one who is going to stand up to this, speak about what’s happened in Europe and say, “Let’s not have it happen here.” Let me say what one of the other things that I am annoyed about with this program. That is the secrecy behind which communities in America are being slated to receive refugees and yet they are not included in the process at all.
I contend that if this was such a fabulous program, put all the cards on the table in every community the State Department and ORR is targeting for refugees. Explain where they will be living, going to school, working and what impacts and costs are involved. But the federal and voluntary agencies involved with the refugee programs appear not to be able to resolve the problems without being secretive about it.
Gordon: Ann, one of the most disturbing parts of this U.N. controlled program is the patent discrimination against endangered Christian refugees, legitimately, from places like Syria, Iraq and other locations. What is the evidence of that?
Corcoran: Let’s just take the Syrian refugee issue. So far the State Department has brought in a small number of Syrians, relatively speaking, into the country. One would think that we would be choosing first and foremost the Christians who are in real danger. But we are bringing mostly Sunni Muslims. There were about 800 Syrians who have been brought into the country in the last few years. Now the State Department and the U.N. have 11,000 in the pipeline waiting to come into the U.S.
But of the 800 that have come in so far, approximately 700 are Sunni Muslims, there were only 43 Christians among the Syrian refugees that have come in so far. That translates to approximately 92 percent of refugees coming in from Syria are Muslims.
I’m told that that is mostly because we are bringing them in from U.N. camps, where the Muslims are found. Christians do not go to the U.N. camps, but to Turkey if they get out of Syria at all, where they’re taken care of by the Syriac church.
Gordon: You talked about possible options for reform of this secretive program administered by the State Department and Department of Health and Human Services. What are the top of the list alternatives that we could possibly consider to rein in this program?
Corcoran: You mean if I were queen for a day and I could wipe out the whole program? That would be one way to start. Clearly the refugee program has to be completely revamped. This whole system of turning these refugees over to these non-governmental organizations that are calling the shots is just outrageous.
I would go back to a day when we resettled refugees, with the help of individual churches and other civic groups. Where a civic group or a church would have to take a refugee family under its wing for a year or two, get them assimilated and settled, and without tapping into taxpayer funds to accomplish it.
That is what I would like to see if, we were going to continue the refugee program. There are serious questions about whether the numbers of refugees are too high from countries that hate us. Perhaps the first thing one could do is to limit the countries from which refugees could come.
There is a lot that could be done to reform this program if there was leadership brave enough to do it.
Bates: Much more to discuss, Ann, but not much more time. We’ve barely scratched the surface, so I would encourage our listeners to go to your website which is www.refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com. Ann Corcoran. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you Jerry for arranging this important interview.
Also see Jerry Gordon’s collection of interviews, The West Speaks.
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